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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: New machine… 92-06-07 16:08:11 EDT From: BurgerBill

A prototype to be built would cost $10,000 for the first one by people in a garage. A true development house would cost upwards of $100,000+.

I for one, work in a garage…

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: alliance machine 92-06-09 22:51:56 EDT From: AFC DYAJim

Now that's an interesting idea!

All I know is that if I won the lottery, this'd be the first thing I'd fund with my money :)

«Jim

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Subj: New machine… 92-06-10 02:40:59 EDT From: LumiTech

If the Alliance can stir up 300+ people in a few months with the $$$ needed to join and the 300+ people are dedicated and serious enough (obviously they are, or they wouldn't have joined), surely a branch effort of raising the funding for the initial $10,000 prototype _COULD_ and most probably _WOULD_ be accomplished. After all, dividing $10,000 by 300+ comes close to equaling a mere $30 each.

I'd send my $30 check immediately. Use the same criteria that was used to initially start the Alliance…"We need 300 checks of $30 each, plus the committment of the Hardware techies out there, before we even start. If not received by xxx, the checks will be destroyed and not cashed.

Any interest?

LumiTech

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: What does your money buy? 92-06-10 03:00:01 EDT From: Presbyte

The notion of sending contributions toward prototype development is most appealing. But what would investors get for their money? Stock is the customary instrument, y'know.

-J

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Stock… 92-06-10 04:17:30 EDT From: LumiTech

I would tend to agree, Jim. Stock has proven itself through the ages, especially in America. After all, the Apple machine originated by 2 stock holders, one with nohow, and the other with a VW van.

An upstart branch of the Alliance could easily (relatively speaking) set up shares of stock, perhaps with the help of one of these 300+ people who have the background into this type of arrangement (an accountant type, perhaps even a stock broker type…). For every $30 investment, you get 1 share.

We may be on to something here. What do others think?

LumiTech

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Prototype… 92-06-10 05:08:32 EDT From: GS Matt

   There is a problem here:  We cannot duplicate the Apple IIgs ROMS

without being taken to court.

   My understanding is that Laser, the II clone company, had a GS clone

almost ready for debut and somehow the idea got squashed. Was it Apple? Who knows…who cares. Can we really build a GS compatible machine from scratch without legal interference? I say the answer is no, too many custom chips involved…

Matt

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Subj: New machine… 92-06-10 11:19:41 EDT From: BurgerBill

Well, I've already gotten tech spec sheets and sample parts so I'm putting together some prototype cards to test my theories. FYI, the Apple IIgs in 1986 (The year it was introduced) required custom chips since the functions of the computer were advanced for that time. Today, with Programmable Gate Array and ASIC technology, the chips of a IIgs can be functionally duplicated AND reduced to 2 chips instead of the numerous "GLU" chips found in a IIgs.

Remember, this is 1992, computer technology has come a long way in 6 years and a new machine must take advantage of all the advances not just warm over things that have been done in the past…

Apple IIe compatible ROMs are easy to come by, just a phone call to laser did that. IIgs ROMs don't need to "cloned" if a new user interface (Motif or Windows) were used to avoid look & feel and since System 6.0 can be "Fooled" into booting on such a machine, Tools found on disk will be what's used instead of tools in ROM.

You keep forgetting that there are ways around things… Besides, look how embarrasing it would be if Apple tried to stop a court case. I have a lawyer who is already looking into the legal precedence of such an endevour.

Off of soapybox..

Bill

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Subj: Go for it… 92-06-10 20:29:02 EDT From: Kinnia

…and I'm not worried about the possibility of throwing away $30. Geez, if I had all the money I have blown on bad restaurant meals in my hand right now I would be able to fund the thing myself. And you never, know…great oaks from little acorns grow.

I DO know that if you brought a prototype to one of our user group meetings (we belong to Washington Apple Pi) and it was a hit, you'd get more money thrown at you than you'd know what to do with…at least at first.

If something good came of my $30, then I would not hesitate to send another $30, and another…and pretty soon, you might have Apple handing you the license on a platter, just to get it out of their hair and into responsible hands. Obviously, they fear and loathe the bad press they'd get if they really did cease manufacture, so this would be a way to keep face.

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Subj: Ownership 92-06-10 21:07:29 EDT From: Presbyte

I am one of those who remember the wonderful communal atmosphere of the Homebrew Computer Club, and similar user group gatherings of the late 70s and early 80s. Everybody shared so much information and know-how so freely, that many influential companies were founded on the sheer overspill of the techno-talk.

But if I were to do anything differently today, it would be to insist on a fair piece of the ownership pie, at least for any enterprise to which I contributed hard cash in those days. While it is true that having done so back then would probably have made me nearly as wealthy as Woz is today, my concern for ownership rights comes more from the fact that those who do not have ownership rights, including nearly all owners and users of personal computers today, are pretty much disenfranchised, when it comes to influencing companies such as Apple to develop or maintain established product lines (e.g., the Apple II).

We talk today of a grand experiment and a romantic undertaking; I'm as much attracted by such things as anyone, probably more than most. But I look ahead to the time when this thing might be more successful than we or anyone else had ever dreamed. As much as possible at that critical time, I would like control of the fate of the enterprise to remain with those who loved it in the beginning. The only way to do this in our capitalist society is to get a piece of the rock early on and keep it.

So, I'll gladly purchase stock in this new enterprise, if it is offered. But I probably won't contribute hard cash otherwise. Advice and knowhow, yes. I like to see neat things grow. But I also don't like to see them die prematurely, so for me, at least, it is stock or nothing.

-J

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Subj: I agree… 92-06-10 23:05:56 EDT From: BurgerBill

I for one do not wish to travel down the path that Apple Inc. trod in its later years. From its beginnings in 1977 through 1982-3 were a happy time when people at Apple were just hackers and hobbyists having a good time and making money at the same time. But when the MBA's took over and the company existed for profits sake and forgot the human factor. That is the mistake that mustn't be repeated.

This brings up an interesting debate… What could have people done at Apple that could have changed the way they acted and got the upper management so distanced from the people out in the field? True, that even today the products that come from Apple are solid and very useful but they seem to be more designed more for how much money can be made from a sale than what neat ideas can be put in it…

The abandonment of a product line as popular as the Apple II is an event that must never happen again…

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Subj: Stock.. 92-06-11 00:15:45 EDT From: A Humanist

is a good idea. Particularly if you get a nifty stock certificate. I really liked the one from Apple Inc.

Plus, the idea of it is great.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: New Machine… 92-06-11 01:59:01 EDT From: GS Matt

   I have no doubt that if anyone can be a part of a successful design

for a new machine, Bill Heineman is that man. (You know that I'll spend the rest of my life being your pal, Bill, after that enjoyable visit to your home that one time…)

   I'm no engineer, so I don't know the technical aspects of it. I am

also no programmer…I'm just a II enthusiast who knows what the CONSUMER wants out of a computer. I am sure that Bill's experience with the Nintendo, especially his workings with their special graphics co-processors, would mean that a new machine designed in part by him will have kick-butt graphics. :)

Matt Ryan

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Subj: Indeed… 92-06-11 07:45:28 EDT From: Elmo Dorf

…this is what this folder is for. Let me know how to get in on the initial offering.

Elmo

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Subj: Me too! 92-06-11 14:45:50 EDT From: TimMac

More than happy to supply some seed money, but I agree with Jim that stock ownership is important. If we can somehow get over that challenge of structure let me know and as they say the check will be in the mail. Tim McNair

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Subj: The Alliance 92-06-11 15:45:27 EDT From: RobertS204

 I agree with most everything written in this folder so far.  The ideas

are great. I do not think acquring stock would be a problem, there could be a IPO of around 1000 shares. John Majka is the man to talk to about the restructuring of the Alliance. I mean, how hard can it be, we're already a REAL corporation. I think all that it entails is the SEC approving the IPO with a A-OK:) (Acronym Attack). John, if you've been reading these last posts, please comment with your input.

 Rob

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Subj: Public? NOT! (please…) 92-06-11 16:46:36 EDT From: Presbyte

Hmmm … to address Bill's question about how Apple got where it is today, let me offer an opinion that taking the company public was part of the problem:

1) On the open market, Apple shares became worth a great deal of money, and many old timers with large blocs naturally succumbed to the temptation to sell and become wealthy;

2) Eventually, as Apple was perceived as being more stable, institutional investors (mutual funds, etc.) bought up more and more of the stock. These firms care only for share price growth and dividends, and as a class have no feel for or affinity with the personal computer industry employee or customer. As more stock fell into the hands of the institutional investors, Apple became more and more susceptible to the pressures from "Wall Street Analysts," whose recommendations drove the stock price up or down depending on what Apple did or did not do with its product line, marketing/distribution strategies, etc. This, IMHO, led to a lot of short-term thinking and unfortunate decisions, including major flirtations with the defense and federal-systems marketplace, something that was anathema to most of the "original Apple" employees and customers that I ever met.

3) Flirtations with defense and federal customers, in concert with "Insider Trading" laws, which prevent those "in the know" within a company from using their knowledge to unfair advantage when trading that company's stock, helped contribute to a greater (some would say nearly paranoid) concern with information confidentiality. The more-or-less free flow of info within the company, which characterized Apple of old, was eventually replaced by policies based on "security levels" and "need to know." Many of those policies have been softened since, but today, as one example, Apple buildings have card-access mechanisms that admit some Apple-badged personnel, while routinely excluding all others. (From time to time in the past, at least as early in the Lisa project, Apple restricted employee access to buildings where "ultra-sensitive" work was going on, but it is only in recent years that the default has been to deny employee access to any arbitrary building, unless clear need for access was shown. The old theory was that, in general, a badged Apple employee could freely move between Apple facilities unescorted. This marks a sea change in management's treatment of and respect for employees.)

I could go on with chapter and verse about this, but suffice it to say that it is probably not necessary to offer stock to the public, and for all the above reasons and more, I advise that the Alliance remain a "privately held" corporation as long as possible. I believe that it is possible to issue stock to members without going through an IPO, although I will of course defer to more accurate information or opinions from those who are more familiar with corporation law than I.

-J

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Stocks… 92-06-12 00:20:15 EDT From: BurgerBill

I agree that keeping the stock in such a firm private would help keep control more in its place but always beware that if such a company succeeds there would be a temptation to sell stock and get rich or possibly some stockholders trying to make the stock worth more by manipulating decisions… But it is a viable concept if done right…

As said before, I am actively working with a friend in designing a prototype of a new machine which would be Apple II compatible but so much more. But also remember DON'T get your hopes up and think that this machine will be in stores by Christmas because it won't.

I MIGHT have a prototype by Christmas but then comes that hard part of trying to sell the idea/prototype so that the operating system can be written and third party developers to write software for it. There are things I don't claim to understand and marketing is one of them. I know software and hardware, I have no clue as to marketing and distribution…

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Subj: My limited… 92-06-12 04:56:38 EDT From: Elmo Dorf

experince with marketing has always left a bad taste in my mouth. What I've seen is that marketing thinks up a product, hangs all the bells and whistles they can imagine on it and then rush out and take orders for a half a zillion or so. Then they come back to engineering with a 60-90 day lead time and say, "Here. See what we've sold. You've got 30 days to create it and get into production." (Scene closes with engineers crawling around on the floor looking for their jaws while the 'Sales Pigs' head for the nearest tavern, slapping each other on the back.)

Bitter? Who me?

Elmo

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Subj: I love this IDEA :) 92-06-12 20:55:22 EDT From: SPEEDLIMIT

The First JOB I GET, after I move, I'd be willing to buy shares !!

What would be real nice is to see this Proto-Type (when it is done) at a MAC FEST or Other FEST. To see the JAWS of thousands of people DROP, to see the JAWS of the Apple Inc. embarrassed by the potential of something they droped the ball on, and the hope that something further down the road might lead to something we as USERS/DEVELOPERS might Control is worth the PRICE. IMHO :)

Speed :)

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Subj: There are… 92-06-13 01:57:56 EDT From: Bellhop

 ...a lot of questions to be addressed: What are the steps necessary to

achieve this goal (new Apple ][ by third-party organization like The Alliance)? Who needs to be influenced, and how? What can I do?

   Law isn't my forte but IMHO it seems that there would have to be more

to it than simply avoiding duplicate ROMs, namely software (like the wonderful new system software…)

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: OK, we've got… 92-06-13 07:11:25 EDT From: LumiTech

some response. The next step is to involve the Alliance.

Obviously, JRMajka is not aware of this thread. I will send him some E-mail advising him to look here. In the meantime, we need to start thinking to the future. I didn't count the responses, but I would say that I just read close to 30 that have been posted in 2 days, with only one on the negative. We could continue posting discussion into eternity, but action is what is needed (_along_ with continued discussion).

Obviously, there are alot of wrinkles to iron out before we can proceed. I, too, favor private stock…at least in the beginning, if not continued infinitum. Let's try to find someone to take this ball and run with it.

I, for one, can contribute not only the initial $30 (or more), but also have the experience in promoting an idea, along with selling that idea to investors, i.e. conducting "dog and pony" shows. We need to find the people with the knowledge of how to get this type of grass root startup to flourish.

More input, please.

LumiTech

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: The thread 92-06-13 09:13:59 EDT From: JR Majka

LumiTech was quite right, I was not aware of this thread. I just don't have the time to check into each and every folder. But I do appreciate his E-mailing me about it.

I am a Systems Engineer. I know software AND hardware. I spoke with Bill about the "Super IIGS" and I believe that everything he proposes is possible and probable. The chips already exist in most cases. All it takes is somebody to put them together on a motherboard and put that into a box.

There will be some legal issues but the nice thing about electronics and software is that there are dozens of ways to do things. The engineers at Apple are great, but they might not have found all or even the best ways to do things.

IMHO, Apple can't sue over "look and feel" because the Super IIGS would use their OS and tools already provided on disk. They will just be used on different hardware.

But exepect Apple to come up with a nuisance suit anyway hoping that the legal expenses would bankrupt the company.

When a company is incorporated, at least in Kentucky, it must state what it's purpose is in the Articles of Incorporation. We did not have the foresight to include manufacturing a computer in those Articles. Therefore, the Super IIGS is beyond the authorization of our charter. Of course, that could be changed.

What I would recommend is that Bill and his friend form a corporation themselves and sell stock to get the funding to build the prototype. In Kentucky, the most stock you can get at incorporation is 2,000 shares without additional cost. Laws vary from state to state. But, it would be worth the cost to get, say, 50,000 shares at incorporation.

Bill and his friend should get at least 51% since they're doing the grunt work. Some should be reserved for future, big money investors. They're going to want something for their money too.

At $30 per share, all that is needed is about 340 shares sold to get prototype funding. Better plan on 400 to 500 though because there are going to be additional expenses.

The Alliance would be very happy and eager to spread the word through a special mailing to it's membership urging them to invest in the company. We also have a mailing list of well over 1,000 additional Apple II owners and would be glad to tell them about it too.

So, Bill. Get incorporated and once incorporated, we would need some info to send out.

Nature abhors a vacuum. The "professional managers" at Apple Computer Inc. created a vacuum in the Apple II market. Which resulted in The Alliance and the "Super IIGS."

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Subj: Super GS 92-06-13 15:58:34 EDT From: Sheppy

Not only am I willing to buy stock in the Super GS, I'll contribute programming time if y'all need it! :)

- Eric S.

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Subj: Here's a REAL easy idea.. 92-06-13 19:35:09 EDT From: QuackDuck

Do what RealTech did, have Apple License the ROMs, make a Super GS, and use some of the GS Roms, you can include the price of the ROMs in the Super GS's price, like the Mac's RealTech Traveler Portable… It uses Mac+ Roms, and the ROMs Prices are included in the package, this would be like buying GSs from Apple, and reselling them….

How does this go, Legally??

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Subj: Super GS 92-06-13 20:08:04 EDT From: GhoStar

Like others I am not an engineer or programmer. Just a user that loves my GS. I am always looking for ways to improve my system and am tired of hearing about all the inhancements for the I*M's. I would gladly by several shares in a corp. that is looking to improve the GS. Hell, I would donate money! As said before if anyone can do it Bill can. Count me in on this project and keep us all posted on it progress GO FOR IT BILL!!

Gho

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Stock… 92-06-13 22:34:59 EDT From: Kinnia

…is a great idea. I am more worried about the liability of Bill et al. if this doesn't fly (not that it won't, but you know…). In other words, I guess I'm not worried about losing $30 or even $300, but just in case that increases by a factor of a few hundred, I do want my name on that money. So what I meant by my post so many messages back is that, even thought I want to be all official about this, I want to be kind to the guys who are doing all the work.

Let me know how I can help.

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Subj: Another one other thing… 92-06-14 00:53:47 EDT From: Kinnia

…what to name this thing? I can see it now, streamlined platinum case, award winning design…and down in the corner on the front, a picture of a little cheeseburger with lettuce on a sesame seed bun.

And it has a little bite out of it.

Are the peripherals referred to as "codiments"? :) Deb (way past bedtime.)

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Subj: Actually… 92-06-14 14:50:48 EDT From: BurgerBill

We are incorporated…

We have a California Corporation called Parsons Engineering and we make and sell cable TV systems for hotels and Sluggo development systems for Super Nintendos.

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Subj: Stock and the NewTwo…. 92-06-14 23:18:26 EDT From: BCS Frank

   I think some of the posters above have underrated the possibilities

for creativity in Capitalism. Most stock offerings are structured for the purposes we'd expect, to get some service or production under way in order to have a good shot at a cash return. If the folks offering stocks have different interests in mind, the offering can often be structured to take them into account.

   The concern here seems to be, a) getting a new Apple IIgs compatable

computer in production & to market, and b) to keep a close community feel between the computer users and the company on a solid long term basis. In effect, the effort would be to recognize a new kind of "user rights, which hitherto is mostly recognized only through such legal mechanisms as warranties, service plans, and the like. I'd suggest that this is a legal/marketing/management challenge, and a company that successfully offered such a "tie" to customers might have a long term competative advantage against "old style" companies.

   For a first approximation, in addition to "regular stock," you might

have a special class of stock, with voting rights on major product line decisions, set up to represent customer/user rights. Distribution of "profits" for these special shares might be through price reductions on product service or update packages. Purchase of these shares would be "in the box" with the computer… buy a 'puter and ::poof!:: you're a special stockholder!

  I suspect that the mechanism can be improved; I'd love to see (and

support) the company that tries! :)

1. - Frank Sweetser

(of course, opinions above are my own)

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Subj: Newletter… 92-06-15 07:41:09 EDT From: LumiTech

I think that Kinnia has come up with the best "next step"…an article in the Alliance newsletter advising all members of this discussion, and the progress being made already. With this article, I feel that further responses would come in from others who have the knowledge in the particular areas needed (Stock procedures, Legal procedures, et al).

Also, Kinnia, I love the Burger logo idea…as a matter of fact, I believe Bill already has the burger to use…what was it Bill, Zany Golf, hole #4?

I, too, am lacked of sleep (lacked?),

LumiTech

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Subj: Another vote… 92-06-15 13:02:04 EDT From: Presbyte

…for the Burger logo. You had better hurry up and get that trademarked, Bill, before some sharpie beats you to it!

-J

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: I'd go for it.. 92-06-15 23:12:46 EDT From: AFC DYAJim

I'd love to invest in such a grand proposal (ditto what everyone else said basically

I'd also like to see Jim write that book.. :)

«Jim

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Subj: Oh no… 92-06-16 00:42:19 EDT From: BurgerBill

First I had to rid myself of the Dr. Death moniker, then came Mr. Bill (The Sluggo development systems didn't help), now everyone calls me Burger (There are some at Interplay who think my name is Bill Burger)

Oh well, If Wozniak can handle "The Woz", I guess I can handle Burger.

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Subj: The Burger Computer 92-06-16 03:54:03 EDT From: Sheppy

Yes, yes!! I have seen the light, and it _IS_ the glistening of heat lamps on limp lettuce! Halleluja! :)

I like it! I like it! :)

Seriously, I think the burger logo would be absolutely perfect!

- Eric S.

Getting excited about the Burger Computer and don't know a thing
about it except that I want to have one... :)

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Subj: Burger Computer 92-06-16 17:05:58 EDT From: QuackDuck

I'd like it too, almost as great as the colorful Apple Logo.. :D

I'd like Cheese inb that.. :)

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Subj: Almost? 92-06-16 17:14:44 EDT From: Bellhop

 Better than the Apple Logo IMHO :D

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Subj: Product names… 92-06-16 17:16:39 EDT From: Presbyte

Let's see, there'd be the "Big Bill," the "BLT," the Southwestern US limited edition "Chili Cheese," the "BBQ" … the possibilities are endless!

Or perhaps Burger Computer could license trademark names from A&W: "Papa Burger" (full desktop system with multiprocessors and multitasking) "Mama Burger" (perhaps a laptop version of Papa), "Teen Burger" (a light and rugged portable, heavy on multimedia capabilities and encased in primary-color plastic enclosures), and the "Baby Burger" (a VERY light and rugged scaled-down burger design with touch screen, color, and sound, intended for Pre-K through 3rd or 4th grade).

Let's keep this up! This is the most fun I personally have had online in weeks! And who knows what can be made of it all???

-J

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Subj: What's in a Big Burger? 92-06-16 18:53:10 EDT From: AFC Tosh

TwoMegOnBoardSevenSlotsHardDiskHigherRezTenMhzGSOSandaFloppyonaSesameSeedBu n.

:)

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Subj: The Burger Logo… 92-06-16 19:19:24 EDT From: M Wolfgram

…certainly must have a bite (er. byte) out of it :}

Marc

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Subj: … 92-06-16 19:25:52 EDT From: Monclova

Really! When someone mentioned the burger, I immediately thought of Zany Golf.

I want to buy some stock. I'm looking for an investment right now, and this seems like a good thing. You (we?) would even have an established base.

One rule, please? No MBAs. I agree with Jim, not just about Apple, but with many companies who have been seduced by the Harvard Business School. These guys are only loyal to their own careers, not to the company they work for. If Chrysler goes down, they can go "manage" at Sears, because they don't really know or need to know anything in particular about a specific market or product. You can see that this attitude started at Apple when the CEO from Pepsi was brought in to sell computers (huh?).

If you DO sell me some stock, my first action would be to vote for the Burger logo. With the bite taken out (heeheehee).

Apple II in some form forever, Bruce

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Subj: Burgers? 92-06-16 22:34:18 EDT From: TerryB21

A Whopper is okay, but PLEASE…NO BIG MACS!

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Subj: Specifics 92-06-16 22:38:31 EDT From: AFC DYAJim

So, what exactly do you have in mind? I don't know about everyone else, but I'm curious as to what can be changed/done/etc, that is if it's decided yet :)

«Jim

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Subj: Yeah, Jim, but… 92-06-17 00:14:41 EDT From: AFC Ted

It would be interesting to see what he has in mind, but then the discussion would probably veer technical and Scott would have to nuke it. Can we do this without going overboard on technicalese , and make Scott's job easy for a change? :)

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Subj: Project Avatar… 92-06-17 13:13:08 EDT From: BurgerBill

Is underway… Those of you who wish to recieve a programmer's guideline booklet (5 xeroxed pages stapled together) on how to program current Apple II and IIgs applications so that they will work on the Avatar (Working name).

The new machine is and it isn't an Apple II. I cannot publicly disclose any more unless I have a non-closure from you because we are doing patent searchs on some of the things in the computer.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: NewTwo 92-06-17 19:36:08 EDT From: Kinnia

That would be a great campaign slogan to attract investors, "Take a Byte of a Burger!"

But really, there ought to be a BurgerLyte, for those who are trying to cut down. "Twice the power, none of the bugs!"

–Deb

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Subj: I ai'nt wealthy… 92-06-17 21:16:36 EDT From: Monclova

but I'd buy stock and sign a ND agreement just to keep this concept going. I haven't laughed so hard here at AO since the "old" days, when Apple wore a human face. Maybe we're on to something here?

Hooting and hollering, Bruce

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Subj: What? 92-06-18 01:12:50 EDT From: Andy Stein

  A couple of people in a garage making a computer from scratch and

selling it from their houses? It just couldn't be done. :)

  Where do I sign up?

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Subj: Funds and Investors 92-06-18 01:14:33 EDT From: Andy Stein

  How can we attract investors and encourage them to contribute funds to

the computers' development and marketing? We need to find some entrepreneurs. Maybe Ross Perot would be interested. It might keep him away from the Presidency, at least. :)

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Subj: Avatar stuff. 92-06-18 01:37:37 EDT From: RobertK89

This sounds great! How do we get the developer info? Also, is there any Sluggo information around here? Just sort of wondering.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Burger w/ fries, hold the mayo 92-06-18 04:26:30 EDT From: Sheppy

I'd love to see whatever information I can get. I've done the ND thang before, and would do it again to be prepared for the next generation of II…

- Eric S.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Misinfo… 92-06-18 10:54:55 EDT From: BurgerBill

When I asked for people to mail me for info on "Avatar", I need your Snail Mail address… And please use E-Mail, don't post your address on a public forum unless you don't mind EVERYONE knowing where you live… :)

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Avatar… 92-06-18 21:18:35 EDT From: AFL Bobloo

Avatar is a great name… but I really have to go along with the Burger concept. It's so beautiful… complete with a bite taken out of it.. Hey.. you could show different colors in it by the different layers… green for the pickle, red for the catsup, dark brown for the burger, yellow for the cheese, light brown for the bun.. It would certainly be neat.

A computer company that can produce a serious product, yet still see humor in the world, while lampooning Apple at the same time..

Can't you just see the ad with Newton sitting under the Apple tree holding up a hamburger with a bite out of it???

I'm willing to invest!! :)

Bob

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Apple's Reaction 92-06-18 23:37:01 EDT From: Andy Stein

  I wonder what Apple's reaction would be.  They'd probably be so

humiliated that they'd sue. They might try to sue you to the point that the legal fees would drive you out of business. Although, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a lawyer who would accept a contingency.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Avatar 92-06-19 19:16:13 EDT From: QuackDuck

Sculley would probably start crying, and say, "The Apple II wasn't supposed to grow, stop it, stop it!" in a 5-year old sort of cry..

Seriously, the Burger Logo would cost too much, all the colors! and they might bleed….

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Burger logo and bleeding… 92-06-20 03:40:26 EDT From: Sheppy

Sorry QuackDuck, but I gotta tell ya… the burger logo would only bleed if you use real beef… :)

- Eric S.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: What if… 92-06-20 14:29:44 EDT From: GS Bob

the Burger computer got real big and another company cloned it? Could they call it a "Soya Burger"?

Back in my hidey-hole…

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Avatar 92-06-20 18:43:25 EDT From: Kinnia

Maybe the lawyer would defend the Avatar in exchange for a machine or two and some stock. (Barter IS the coming thing.) After this MicroSoft fiasco, Apple Inc. has got to be too embarrassed to drag anyone else through the s**t for very far.

Maybe we should all start documenting those encounters with dealers and idiot computer-chain-store reps (who shall remain nCaOmMePlUeSsAs) so we can go into court with evidence that, even though Apple manufactures the thing, it isn't promoting it, isn't supporting it and has treated it like the idiot brother it keeps in the basement. With more evidence, such as the probable sales figures this thing is likely garner, a court is likely to say that Apple dropped the ball and fair is fair that someone else picked it up.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Lawsuits of Avatar?… 92-06-20 19:28:12 EDT From: LumiTech

I'm not a lawyer, but have witnessed with interest MANY lawsuits concerning copyright/look-and-feel infringements. As is stated above by Kinnia, I strongly feel that Apple would not have _much_ of a leg to stand on.

The hardware technology has been tapped already by many…SNES, Zip, Ensoniq to name a few…indeed, in some cases, Apple did NOT develop, but used existing technology in the development of the IIgs.

The only problem I can possibly forsee is with the ROMs, and as stated before, this is a _relatively_ easy work around. As Kinnia states, the facts exist that Apple has all but abandoned the GS, and there are NUMEROUS precedents that can be used to overcome most obstacles that Apple can throw at us, if they wish negative publicity that would bring the Apple II to the forefront of media exposure, which incidentally would be _in the interest_ of what we are trying to do here, AND for the Alliance (how do you like that for a run-on sentence!).

Let us keep the ideas flowing.

LumiTech

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Lawsuits 92-06-22 03:30:24 EDT From: Gater

I can see the headlines in the New York Times already…

Apple Files Suit Against Burger Computer - But Where's the Beef?

Or maybe the headlines 1 year after the intro of the new machine..

2 Million Served!

Hey, an idea! You could put big signs outside each of the dealers stores with a spot to change the "nn Million Served" part!

More headlines….

New computer Flames Apple

New Computer rises from Half-baked Apple Idea

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Recording Companies.. 92-06-22 10:18:35 EDT From: PeterL25

 Ok..  Now, just so that we don't have to go through the same stuff

involving music all over again, are we _sure_ that none of the Beatles own a recording outfit using the name "Burger"?

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Apple's reaction 92-06-22 21:18:38 EDT From: Parth 2

Good one, Peter. :D

OK, here's my shot at a prediction for Apple's reaction to the Burger/Avatar/Whopper/whatever. ;)

NOTE - THIS IS ONLY A PARODY! THIS IS NOT REAL!

SUNNYVALE, CA (ANS) – Apple Computer, Inc. has filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the BurgerBill Computer Company, Inc., the company that has produced prototypes of a II-series "clone" called the "Avatar". When asked for comment about the lawsuit, Apple's John Sculley said, "We have to protect our rights to the II. It's a vital part of our future, and our legal obligation is to insure that it will remain so, and that the technology behind the II will not be stolen."

Sculley was then approached by a member of the computer press, who whispered something in his ear. "Oh, they aren't gonna be cloning the MACINTOSH II series?", asked Sculley. Apple officials are rumored to be readying papers to drop the suit.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Avatar jokes… 92-06-22 22:48:57 EDT From: Kinnia

…I don't think any of us should quit our day jobs just yet…

…but keep 'em coming anyway!

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Slogans… 92-06-22 23:34:21 EDT From: Andy Stein

  Some of those slogans were really funny.  I honestly think that some of

them could be used, should this computer ever be sold. Perhaps Bill might want to contract their author for use in promotional materials.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: Avitar could be cool 92-06-23 00:49:05 EDT From: EJulien

Instead of the IIGS thermometer, Bill could have a wizard brewing a spell and then point at you from inside the monitor and have a desktop come on with a flash.

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Path: Across the Boards!/The future…

Subj: The GS… 92-06-23 02:13:34 EDT From: Bellhop

Can already do that with the right INIT :)

Still, the Avatar may just be the next NeXT…Similar circumstances.

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: Project Avatar?? 92-06-28 12:03:57 EDT From: The Magnet

So for those of are in the dark, what is this project about? a Ultima 4: Avatar for the GS or something entirely different?

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: Avatar… 92-06-28 14:23:41 EDT From: BurgerBill

Is a project which entails building a NEW computer. It interests the Apple II world since the machine can run Apple IIgs software.

But it's like saying the Apple IIgs runs IIe software…

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: Avatar rumors spreading… 92-06-28 17:35:45 EDT From: Sheppy

I've been watching (and participating in) Project Avatar discussions both here on AOL and in the occasional threads on comp.sys.apple2. The rumor mill has begun cranking out its own conceptual Avatar configuration (1 zillion by 1 zillion in 8 zillion color graphics), 1 gigahertz, etc. :) There was one intriguing post which said that Avatar would be compatible with a number of systems; I don't know what amount of truth there is in this, though, but am looking forward to signing my ND. :)

- Eric S.

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: Since… 92-06-28 23:15:23 EDT From: BurgerBill

I am not on Comp.sys.apple I can only assume that speculation is there and few real facts. I will dispell rumors that I find but I cannot be everywhere at once..

Resolution planned… 640X480 X 256 colors but can be programmed to just about ANY resolution desired only VRam is your limit.

Speed Planned… 10Mhz 65816 and 265. Note that this is misleading due to the machines design make a speed benchmark kind of difficult to give a single number…

Audio planned… Ensoniq w/ 512K ram but this may change due to availablity of the Ensoniq 5530 chip…

CPU's planned, 65c816, 65c265, TMS34010.

Keyboard (IBM AT 101 Key keyboard), Mouse (IBM Serial), JoyStick Port (Uses IBM Joystick), Floppy port (IBM 5 1/4 and 3.5), Hard Disk (IBM IDE AT type drive and SCSI).

Power Supply (IBM mini power supply), Case (Several to choose from. Choice to be made when definate marketing plans have been made).

Future models include one that replaces the IIgs motherboard, and one that plugs into an IBM style case. When marketing is defined then all models and configurations will be decided on.

Burger Bill

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: Slots? 92-06-28 23:23:20 EDT From: GregoryFox

What about slots to accomodate the RAMfast-SCSI, etc?

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: SOLD!!! 92-06-29 00:09:32 EDT From: BruceMusic

I am in the market for a new machine, and this one sounds like my kind of machine! Put my name at the top of the list!

Bruce

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Path: Across the Boards!/Avatar Project

Subj: comp.sys.apple2 & Avatar 92-06-29 03:28:58 EDT From: Sheppy

Tonight I'm collecting all the Avatar-related posts I can find, so that I can post them on comp.sys.apple2. This way, netland will know more real facts about Avatar.

- Eric S.